Which is fair: Stamp Duty or Property Tax?

Which is fair: Stamp Duty or Property Tax?

Which is fair: Stamp Duty or Property tax?

The Commission on Taxation report recommended moving away from our reliance on transaction taxes such as stamp duty and to introduce a Property Tax which would provide a more stable stream of revenue.

New homeowners would be exempt from paying the property tax for a 7 year period from the year they paid (probably a hefty) stamp duty – … This is no consolation for those who paid the full whack of 9% in the height of the boom and who now have an expensive home and a big mortgage.

The property tax would be calculated based on the value of your home – again this is not good news for those who live in urban areas where property values would be far greater than their rural counterparts.

So, which is fair: Stamp Duty or Property Tax? Here are the Maths:

  • €563 example of the cost of annual property tax on a house worth €150,000 – €300,000
  • €12,250 the amount of stamp duty payable by owner occupiers purchasing a house worth €300,000, under the current stamp duty regime -21 years worth of property tax

Have Your Say:

  • Which is fair: Stamp Duty or Property Tax?
There are 78 comments for this article
  1. Rationalist at 8:33 am

    Unfortunately, this property tax is a much needed source of income for revenue, transaction costs are too low on the ground and the situation is unlikely to improve over the coming decade. This tax provides a steady stream of income and ought to be based on the land value and not the house itself, most capital appreciation is to do with land values. It should be a progressive and fair tax . The wealthiest in our society should pay most.

  2. Eibhlin at 12:59 pm

    Don’t let the government bring in property taxes. When you can’t pay the taxes on your home they take your home as payment. You never own your own home. You can never retire in the expensive house you purchased. Worse then that you may live in an area where the property taxes are low all your life, then when it’s time to retire your neighborhood becomes the hip place to live and you pay through the nose on property taxes for a house you have already paid off. It happens in American all the time, its partly why people retire in Florida. People get pushed out of their neighborhoods because they can’t afford the taxes on their property not because their property got any better but a couple of their neighbors renovated their homes and pushed up property taxes. Property taxes push people into segregated social areas. Essentially, kicking you out of your house when your neighborhood improves. Stop the government from bringing in property taxes. You will be renting your house from the government for the rest of your life.

  3. Thomas Marshall at 2:06 am

    Can anyone tell a Yank about your tax system? Does the EU levy a direct tax on Irish citizens or is it only through the Irish government?

    What is the means of collecting your taxes? How much is paid be each person directly? What portion is witheld by your employer? What portion of the country’s revenue is derived from the VAT?

    What would happen if a tax revolt occurred and everyone decided at the same time not to pay their taxes?

  4. Jean Cooper at 6:40 pm

    I have already paid my stamp duty and I do not think this is a fair tax. This is an urban tax and has nothing to do with the quare footage of the house. Effectly they will collect the tax twice from existing home owners that paid their stamp duty. Maybe we should consider selling our house and renting. What effect will this have on house prices?
    If one is on low income/unemployed/pensioneer etc. I believe the amount due over the number of years will be charged to the property and I assume this will be with interest? Where is the joy of owning your own house anymore because it does not make any financial sense if one adds the cost of the following:

    1. Property tax
    2. Maintenance costs
    3. Professional fees
    4. Bank repayments and interest
    5. Local authority charges

    But with Property Tax we will be never finished even when we are dead. We must fight this action at all cost.

  5. very very annoyed at 11:27 pm

    i agree with the majority of people above. This government is incompetent but i don’t see any other party doing a better job. FF got us into this mess, they should get us out of it but not at the expense of the people that a) put them in there and b) who are trying to survive with less income than when they first purchased their home. How they can say that no-one in government back in 2004 onwards could foresee this recession coming is so pathetic, any fool could see this happening with the way the property was rising and banks giving money left right and centre to developers and the like….it makes my blood boil and now they want to introduce a property tax, tax on child benefit and water rates. Like someone said above, why not tax us on air……

    I think Child Benefit should be means tested. Some people get that and they don’t need it. If this bring in a means test they won’t have to tax it.

    I don’t think there should be a property tax or stamp duty. That way all the houses that are lying around might get sold and the country can at least try and get back on it’s feet, maybe…..

    i do agree with a property tax or some sort of tax being brought in for people who own 2 or more houses.

    if this government want respect from the people of Ireland then they need to respect us first, stop hitting us the whole time for tax on this and tax on that and “we need to get the economy back on track so everyone has to pull together” if i hear this one more time from our Taoiseach, i mean let the rich and the people who wasted millions of money help out and STOP punishing those who are trying to live on very limited income and means. I personally will STRUGGLE big time if further taxes or hikes are put on basic living facilities, services etc…… I am struggling as it is financially.

    also if they put some extra thought and money into the smuggling of cigarettes etc that might bring the revenue up a few hundred million a year. Where is the wasted money gone, they are pathetic government and i don’t know what they do to earn the big salaries they have, cos as far as i can see they do f*** all up there only talk and take holidays and spend the tax payers money!!!!
    hopefully someone up there will see that some of the motions put forward in the commission taxation report are just plain ludricous and should not even be considered.

  6. Kevin at 12:08 pm

    Property Tax is never fair!
    In counties where property tax is paid no one ever owns there own property, they just rent it from the government. If you don’t, or can’t pay your rent (i.e. property tax), you will be evicted.
    It’s much better to pay a duty up front and be the true and only owner of your own property!

  7. Colm at 1:13 pm

    I paid stamp duty AND I pay management fees. The county council refuse to take over the running of our estate. We have to pay a management company to maintain the roads in the estate, cut the grass, provide street lighting and service the waste treatment plant. We even have to maintain the green area and public lights on the road OUTSIDE the estate. Once water rates come in on top of the annual road tax I will literally receive none of the services from my local council that the property tax is supposed to pay for.

    They can bring me to court for their property tax. I have the letters that show they refuse to provide me with the services they provide in other estates. When it comes to court I’m confident there isn’t a judge or jury in the land who would rule that I have to pay the council again for services that I am already being refused access to even though I paid for them in stamp duty.

  8. f wosser at 11:54 am

    I much prefer the idea of property tax as someone who wants to upgrade but stamp duty was my only obstacle. Yes it is very unfair to those who have paid in the past so a equal allowance should be given to balance it out. I am 100% in favour of getting rid of stamp and those who want it to stay are just having trouble swallowing the bitter pill. We all need to face up to it as we have been affected by past situations one way or another (myself living in a house I don’t want to be in for the last few years), hopefully now I can move !

  9. Unsionn at 10:34 am

    This is pure & simple a money grab by an incompetent government. Also, it is another example of how this country penalizes people who make the effort to improve their lot. If their is to be a property tax then it should cover the costs of all utilities, but more importantly it should be capped. Full exemption should be given to those who have already paid stamp duty.

    With the new taxes that already have been levied and the new ones coming down the road, we as a family (like so many others) genuinely cannot afford any more. This is not a low tax economy, as our everyday lives are riddled with indirect taxes. For example, we have a 3rd world public transport system here and as a result a car is a necessity for most families – just look how that one item is taxed from it’s purchase right down to your running costs (Excise duty, VAT, VRT, insurance, road tax, petrol costs). The ordinary hard working Irish people cannot take any more taxes.

    We need boots on the streets guys – lets get out there and kick this Government’s in the proverbial ass!

  10. Jim at 9:19 pm

    Just read through this blog, and I have to say I am taken back by the passionate responses from people who clearly want a better Ireland, the most wont mind giving money to help their country but the overall feeling is people feel that their money will be wasted by our elected government.

    I think NAMA will help us out of this mess but not with this government. I dont mind giving €250 in property tax if we see a difference.

    I think with so many spirited people in Ireland we will recover but it is time for a change.

  11. Tom at 9:11 pm

    I complete agree with you but why are the economists not getting together to come up with a proper solution to this situation…this is what drives me mad…they all predicted the fall of the economy but none of them are coming out now and saying what they think is the way out of this mess.

    We have some of the best minds in econmics but are we really leaving this decission up to the government. This is a call to all economists out there, organise a conference, make a discission and help you country !!!

  12. Tom at 3:37 pm

    Some feedback from Canada where residential property tax is well established and widely accepted. When I moved here first from Dublin, and bought a house I was shocked to find out that a relatuvely large annual property tax was charged by the local authority. (In addition to a minimal transaction tax.)
    The property tax revenue is utilized to fund local and regional services(rubbish pick-up;snow ploughing!;parks etc) and regional education boards who run the school system.(If you have no kids in school you still pay.) Householders also pay for water and sewer(!) usage. Unfortunately this large revenue base encourages a bloated local govenment – a typically large bureaucracy relative to the size of the city/town. The resulting taxes (calculated on a value basis – similar to the old rates sytem in Ireland) are exorbitant in towns/cities where the houses may be modest but values are relatively high due to location advantages.
    In my case the annual tax of over $5,000 – Euro3,200 for an average size/quality home. My neighbour pays over $8,000! This of course is double taxation as my salary has already been taxed at similar rates to Ireland. (Yes there are countries where the tax burden is as high as Ireland!)
    The point here – govenrments will justify and ‘dress-up’ property taxes in any way they can – but once they are established they tend to become accepted, go up over time with many purchasers focused on the house and its location and less on the intent/supposed benefits of the tax.
    We should make sure that safeguards are built into whatever system is established to ensure the tax remains relatively low and is somehow capped.- not a never-ending gravy train which ends up encouraging unecessary growth of local authorities.

  13. Alan at 12:47 pm

    I think it is crazy to say we are a low tax economy when we are going to have property tax, water tax, a tax on child benefit…whats next a tax on air. Why not just have a third tax band of 50% for everyone over 100K surely that we help solve our debt.

  14. David at 11:32 am

    We not should a penny of either property tax or stamp duty. This quote from finfact 11 sep 09 from a notable Irish ecomomist forecasts dire consequences for the property market and all associated with it within Ireland affecting us all. We don’t need more taxes we need a tax break i.e. no property tax and no stamp duty. We pay enough taxes on our salaries cars, savings give us all a break please.

    http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1017800.shtml
    “UCD economist Morgan Kelly, who has done extensive work on contagion from economic bubbles, told the High Court hearing on the Carroll examinership bid on Wednesday, that Irish property prices are likely to fall back to mid-1990s levels, a view that is based on research on some 40 similar property booms. He said the current collapse of property sales, despite price falls of between 40-50 per cent, combined with large stocks of properties held by deeply indebted builders, developers and private investors, made it difficult to dismiss the possibility Irish property prices could remain below half their peak value “for the next decade or longer.”

  15. Cliona at 10:58 pm

    As usual the government has thrown out a suggestion/idea and not properly researched it.

    Neither the stamp duty or property tax are a fair taxation, but then no tax is!

    Stamp Duty is a huge once off expense when purchasing a home, which is usually the equivalent to a budget it would cost to furnish a home, which is why it takes ‘us’ purchasers so long to furnish a house as our money is gone elsewhere. With stamp duty being a once off payment on the property, property tax could be a lifelong taxation. The government is going to win big time on the property tax, for example a 30 year old purchasing a house worth €150k-€300k would be due to pay €563 per annum (as per the myhome example), therefore assuming this person lives to 80 the total payable would be a whopping €28,150! There are also further questions to be asked… will the elderly be liable for such tax? Will such a tax apply to the unemployed? Perhaps it should be means tested?

    The property tax should not simply be applied to all homes, and I agree with a previous comment that it should be calculated on a square footage basis, and further expand on this comment that it should be on a simple rate per square foot and none of this messing of a rate up to x sq. ft., on from x sq. ft. to y sq. ft. at another rate, etc…. If this tax were to be introduced there should also be a fair system for those who have paid stamp duty on the purchase of their property, whereby you could be entitled to a ‘exempt period’ whereby property tax will not be due on the property until such time as the value in stamp duty has caught up on the property tax over a number of years, e.g. If you paid €12,250 you would be exempt from the property tax for a period of 21.7years… although who can see the government agreeing to this!

    Personally, I purchased an apartment a few years ago and paid stamp duty on it, then sold the apartment so that I could purchase a house and paid another load of stamp duty so I think I have certainly paid my dues to the government.

    Which is fair….. neither are fair although if the government put some thought into the property tax there would be a fairer way a applying the tax so that people are not again double/triple taxed.

  16. vincenzo at 9:42 pm

    man if u pay stamp duty whenever u think to buy another house u will pay only once a life other way u have to pay every f…. year is not a great idea in italy my family they pay every year is a pain ….u know where,,,,

  17. Eddie at 7:45 pm

    As to the trust-never trust any government-self serving willians-here and around everywhere. Give an example if I am wrong

  18. Eddie at 7:43 pm

    neither is fair. How about those who paid hefty stamp duty already?And where does 500 euro figure come from? why is it not 100 or 1000 or 200? it it just given by heavens?

  19. Alan at 6:06 pm

    well obviously brian you have it to give, not everyone is in that situation, I want Ireland to get back on track but I think the money has been mis-used and wasted.

    I dont trust this government any more to get us out of this mess !
    I am sue Tina will back me up on this !!!

  20. brian at 6:01 pm

    Tina & Alan, why dont you understand that the past is the past that money is gone and this country is in trouble and needs cash we all have to help get Ireland out of this mess, that means everyone, so it wont be just you it will be everyone who owns a house whether you work in the private or public sector. I think property tax is fair, and I for one dont mind paying it.

  21. tina at 2:22 pm

    I am fuming with this disgraceful idea that wealthy business men came up. I paid 27,000es stamp duty two years ago. Now Im being asked to give more on a property that has lost a good bit of its value. I had the good fortune to be able to go and work and provide my family with a home. I got no help from the goverment, received no social welfare and definitely did not ask the local council to house me. I feel I am being punished for standing on my own two feet. Maybe we should all take local authority housing and claim social welfare every week and then see where they are going to claim their extra and disgraceful taxes from. For gods sake give us a break. If you want extra revenue ask the goverment members to lead a normal life on a normal joe soap wage and see how we all get on then.

  22. Alan at 11:15 am

    I am so annoyed by this, 2 years ago I spent €20K on stamp duty, money that I would have preferred to put into the deposit for the house to bring down the repayments. At the time we had saved up 25K to buy our first house 5K went on a solicitor and various fees and 20k went to the government meaning I had to borrow 100% mortgage now I am left with a house which has dropped about 30% in value and the government want me to give them more money…is it just me or is this maddness…why is it always the normal guy that has to solve this governments problems, always the private sector, always the people who could lose there job in the morning !!!!

  23. L Phelan at 10:52 am

    Just another example of what a mess our government is making of our country. Tax is fair on a family home. They already have us paying many unfair taxes and have mis spent all public monies and yet again we are expected to pay to resolve their mistakes. Taking to people about this issue it seems that if they enforce a property tax there will be country wide protests and marches and we will all resist. If they insist on a property tax they can refund us the 60K we were forced to pay in stamp duty 2 years ago!!!!!!!!! ITS PURE ROBERRY

  24. David at 10:06 am

    I think that the property tax is a better idea PROVIDING that the government use the money properly to get themselves out of the mess they made with regards to the resession. When we have better times for example during the “Celtic Tiger” they didn’t get rid of these types of taxes did they? If people are against property taxes they should unite and speak out as once it’s in, it’s here to stay (or increased!).

  25. A B at 9:33 am

    Perhaps the administratively most simple way of valuing property for applying a property tax is to continue to demand a lower stamp duty at time of purchase (say 2%) and at the time of collection require the square meter area to be declared. Then utilising this database, apply a tax on a square meter basis to be self declared by each householder in each local authority area based on the cost of public services in that local authority area. ( undeclaration would be picked up on any subsequent sales)

    For example

    Say in year one we have 5000 sales in Louth where stamp duty was paid.
    Louth county council estimates what % this is of total housing stock in that county. – accuracy not that important. It knows the sq meters of the 5000 sales so it estimates ( roughly would do for the first year) the square meters in the county and it applies a square meter rate linked to its cost of delivering services in that county.

    The rate per meter could be subdivided so that you only pay for what you get. If you have your own water supply you do not pay the water element.

    The percentage recovery of costs in each local authority area could vary based on national social policy considerations – for instance you may decide to collect 100% of the cost in Dublin but say 30% in Leitrim (that is if you wanted to support and encourage settlement in that County, but that would be a National rather than local government decision).

    Any stamp duty paid in the any of the previous five years could be utilised as a tax credit against property tax.

    While this could be brought down to a sub local authority level there should be no requirement to do so. If there is perceived to be such a requirement, it just demonstrates that the services being applied within that local authority area are uneven and this is the issue that should be addressed.

    The local authorities then would be in competition and would need to have both good and cost effective services to attract residents.

    Now wouldn’t that be neat!

  26. Fran at 2:29 am

    I think if property tax does come in. it should be an amount up to a wide band of 0- 500000 euro. As people have said values are different all round the country but this would allow for the average joe in diffennt areas the same tax rate E.G 250 EURO. Then increase the rate after this 500000-million to 500euro. If the goverment get to greedy they’ll be kicked out of office over this, about time too!!!

  27. Fergal at 11:00 pm

    Personally, I think a UK style model needs to be employed here.

    Something like 1% of the purchase price, to cover whatever registration charges are involved with the change of property ownership, followed by percentage valuation charge – based on reasonable valuation and not a banded process- is really the only way to go.

    If you band it, then you almost contain property prices between the bands, as we see with previous and current Stamp duty charges.
    If you base it on Square footage, then you have a number of issues. For example, why should my Parents, who live in a 1400 sq foot house in an area where there are zero public services available and have to drive 40 miles to pay for the privelege of recycling and dumping their rubbish (and who have to arrange their own Water services compliant within regulations), pay the same as someone who lives in D4 who has their rubbish collected and bitches about an odd disturbance to a very comfortable provision wealth of Public services on their doorstep?.

    Valuation is really the only way to go, but to achieve that, there needs to be a publicly available database of valuations, so that people can understand both the area they are buying into and the relative valuations of the properties.

    Before this even starts, there needs to be a change in the Data protection act which allows for the publication of Property price information. Thereafter, and only thereafter, a number of years of collection of the data will or should allow for a natural valuation process. In areas where there are still deficiencies, then valuations will need to be calculated by a professional body, based on specific available data, such as square footage and region, and the prices of comparable properties in similar serviced areas if no other ideal valuation is available.

    Unfortunately, as we don’t have a postcode system which allows us to pinpoint a location, it needs to be as un-scientific as the above for certain regions – e.g. my parents 1400 sq foot house in the middle of nowhere with no services, may have to be compared to a place in a similar backwater on the other side of the country, but provided the lack of service is comparable.

    In short- an annuity such as a property tax is a fairer system, but it will take many years before the introduction of this is equitable. Therefore, it’s either started now, and makes it unfortunate for those who’ve paid hefty amounts of Stamp during the boom, or waiting for years after the introduction of a number of other initiatives.

    thats my tuppence worth. As regards blaming the Government and Banks for overpaying through the boom – no one held a gun to anyones head to buy a house in the last 10 years, many got caught up in the hype, no need to look at someone else to blame for this now. Its high time people copped on to that.

  28. damian at 9:26 pm

    I have already paid stamp duty when i bought my house and i am still paying for it.Why should i have to pay tax again for the same house ,

  29. Michael at 9:10 pm

    The Government needs the money.
    Bring in property tax now, in the next budget, but consider the Stamp duty already paid as a pre payment.
    So if you paid 30,000 stamp duty and lets say the rate was 1,000 per annum then you would not have to pay cash for 30 years. The real cash would come from those who did not pay stamp duty.
    Clearly that 1,000 will go up by a %’age each year for the next few years so that the increase will eat into your 30 years.
    At least you are getting some value for the rip off Stamp Duty that was charged which if you remember Michael McDowell said the Government did not need way back 5/6 years ago.
    Stamp duty should be abolished now and see if that will encourage some transactions to take place.
    Anyone buying would then know what their ongoing commitments will be and can decide to buy or not based on the full facts as they know them.
    At the moment no one is moving because this debate is ongoing and everyone believes property will be cheaper next year.
    After Liam Carroll yesterday and today, I believe in six months we will look back and see this decision as our own Lehman Brothers event.

  30. Chris Brennan at 7:51 pm

    Here’s an idea. Figures released under the freedom of information act show that Green TD for Dublin Mid-West Paul Gogarty has spent over Eur100,000 in two years on expenses. That’s about 177.61 years of property tax for someone who will have to pay. Long past anyone’s life expectancy. Why not look at their own pay and expenses first before targeting the lower and middle classes of Ireland to get them out of a mess that their dependance on a property bubble created.

    We’ve all been told by our older generation to look to the past to not make the same mistakes for the future… It’s only been less than 200 years since there was a “tithe war” in Ireland where a government wanted to take money from those who worked the land for the upkeep of the Church of Ireland. Now in modern day Ireland the church are the banks and the tithe we are now supposed to pay is the same as it was before, a “land tax”.

    Neither tax is fair. People can blindly look to England and say “it works over there”. They have a completely different system of taxation than we do here. Our PAYE tax pays for what Council Tax pays for in the UK, it works well and has worked well up until now. Not everything works well in every country. Remember NAMA worked in Sweden and the USA but did not in France. Should we give Fianna Fail the chance to see if it works over here and if we end up Eur110 billion in the red instead of the Eur20 billion we are now, just shrug our shoulders and say “hey, it didnt work here but at least we tried?” We are allowing a government who sat by idly taking money out of our pockets for the basic necessity of a roof over our heads to cover up their misakes by taking even more money.

    I know an elderly couple who bought their house when it was worth very little. They’re retired and are on a state pension. They paid their taxes all their lives, paid their stamp duty on their house, paid every other tax this country and successive Fianna Fail governments have lumped on them. Now with very little to pay from their benefits they are being asked to not only pay a “land tax” until they die but for their kids to pay an “inheritance Tax” when they do die. What’s next? A tax on air? A Tax if you don’t have a tree in your garden to remove carbon dioxide from the air and create oxygen? (Obviously for the benefit of their Green Party buddies). How about a tax on how many times you flush your loo every day? Ahhh, let’s not stop there. Let’s tax mothers the second they go into the labour ward to have a child. Get the kid ready from birth for what they can expect from the rest of their lives if they’re foolish enough to vote in FF…

  31. Emma at 7:50 pm

    Stamp duty relates to the purchase price of a house – this is what someone is prepared to pay for a residence in the market at the time. Tax it at a lower rate than currently exists today, then leave the annual property tax idea aside. People pay stamp duty knowing how much it is once only – if an annual tax is introduced, who knows how much it will vary by from government to government?

  32. Jill at 6:36 pm

    Everything seems to be unfair about a property tax.

    People living alone would have to pay the same amount as couples with three earning children – shades of the unlovely UK poll tax.

    Your home costs you money anyway: maintenance, servicing, etc., yet it earns nothing and should not be taxed.

    As so many have already said, it would be deeply unfair if people who have already paid a huge stamp duty had to pay property tax as well.

    It is very unfair that the amount of property tax is to be based on the value of the house. Who decides the value? Should we be taxed more, or less, depending on where we live? If it must happen then basing the amount on the size of the house makes more sense. But surely that would be unacceptable to flat owners.

    Finally, why are we sitting around talking about this when we should be in the Dail tossing out of the office the idiots who don’t seem to have a clue how to get us out of the mess they got us in to. How dare they expect us to bail them out.

  33. Ruairi at 6:26 pm

    I agree it is not taxes where the issue really lies – it is the cost of running the bloated backwater of public sector “services” and quangos and keeping the FF backslappers in slap up lunches, chaffeurs and lapdances.

    The kind of wastage, inefficiency and abuse of budgets endemic in FAS is only the tip of the iceberg. I imagine if we scratch a little deeper we would be horrified to see the full extent of the galway-race going wasters of our money. There are probably hundreds of Rody Molloys and John O’Donoghues who have been taking the mickey out of us for years…I’m not the kind of fella to hit the streets, but 2009 might be my year-but then again this subject is about property tax…

  34. anne at 6:23 pm

    I do not think either property tax or stamp duty are fair. I have already paid stamp duty on my home. Why should I have to pay tax on it again?
    I am still paying off my mortgage and cannot afford to pay another tax.

  35. Jack Crowley at 6:11 pm

    It is unconstitutional. It is a double tax. If people have paid stamp duty, then that is it. I should only be on new purchase homes, they can’t go back. In other countries, you actually get something in terms of services for your property tax. i.e. Canada, property tax pays for schools, water, road maitenance, garbage pick up( including recyclables, and heavy goods), and whole other pile of services by the municipality. No one will be able to afford this tax, they might as well take the house back now that I bought. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Property_tax

  36. king Aido at 5:51 pm

    I think …..that we should keep paying the stamp duty, its only fair for all people to do their best to get the country out of this recession so anymore money we can donate to the government surely must help.

    Lets keep this stamp duty in and up, if it was such a good idea over the last 10-15yrs etc, then surely it must be for the better.

  37. Rachel at 5:39 pm

    A property tax on a second or third home should be introduced instead of stamp duty to be paid on the purchase of the property. It should not be introduced for owner occupiers but on those who have more than one property.

  38. shane at 5:24 pm

    Exactly Thomas, estimated cost of the new metro 5 billion !!! need I say more

  39. Thomas Marshall at 5:15 pm

    The problem starts with government spending. The real battle should be about out-of-control government spending and reducing it rather than trying to figure out which is the better means of funding that uncontrolled spending.

    Since significant inequities attend the change from a stamp system to a property tax system, it appears best to leave the stamp system alone and forget the property tax. The real estate market might be encouraged if the stamp duty either had a rate reduction or was payable over extended number of years.

  40. Gisela at 5:13 pm

    I have to agree with Odran and Noel. We should take to the streets to let them know that we won’t take everything lying down. It will never stop if we keep on taking it. And it did work for the pensioners, didn’t it?

  41. Odran at 5:04 pm

    When will you Irish people stand up for you and say no? You have a proud history of defending your interests why now when Ireland is on its knees does no one take to the streets to demand the change!

  42. Odran at 5:00 pm

    for me it would be the straw that broke the camels back I would go on the dole and get the social to provide me with a house now mortgage or tax worries that way !!!

  43. shane at 4:56 pm

    we would never be finished paying for our homes if property tax comes in !

  44. Noel O’Reilly at 4:52 pm

    Neither option is fair or equitable, be are being taxed out of existance.
    NAMA will be set up to support the already overpaid greedy Bankers: It makes my blood boil with sheer frustration. The middle classes are called on to bail outall the greed that still exists in the two main banks.

    Suggest we all take to the streets and protest at Fianna Fail sleeping on the job. No one is accountable for the myriad of mistakes made by successful FF administrations. O’Donoghue should br made resign over his expenses debacle. Shame on Cowan, Bertie ( The Minister for finance who had not got a bank account and won €50,00 on a horse !! Bertie do you really think we are all fools ??? ) and the whole FF party.

  45. kathleen at 4:48 pm

    Property tax is a tax that old people will not be able to pay

  46. David at 3:47 pm

    the logic voiced by a lot of people above is flawed in that its the same as saying I paid VRT why should I pay annual road tax. The anwer to that and to property tax is that we (our government) need the money to run the country and any transaction, income, asset is fair value. we should be thankful its not a wealth tax. I would also argue against those who think it should be based on square footage – all diesel drivers know that road tax based on engine capacity was a bit of a joke – however difficult it will be to come up with valuations (UK manage to do it funnily) it will still be fairer than square footage. I would encourage the government to link it also to energy rating but that’s another story. Finally the government may want to consider deducting from the value any financing outstanding on the property helping those in real negative or low equity situations but that penalises those who saved and bought rather than borrowed and bought and to be honest opens up more issues

  47. liz at 3:03 pm

    i second that and third it and forth it. power to the allready over tax paying public!

  48. liz at 2:59 pm

    i second that and third it and forth it. power to the allready over tax paying public!

  49. Ruairi O’Conduin at 2:58 pm

    Notwithstanding my earlier comments, if property tax was brought in, in theory it should be linked to the price of providing services to the property. Centrally located properties which tend to be of higher value (but smaller) are much more efficient, and cheaper to provide services to. So in my opinion, basing such a tax on square footage is far more equitable method. Also the carbon footprint of people in cities should be far lower and this should be incentivised.

  50. liz at 2:56 pm

    no income is disposable we should not have to make a choice here its maddness,we pay tax on everything in this country and the government just keeps kicking us when we are down. how on earth are our children going to survive in the future with all of this going on.
    i will make sure my kids rent for the rest of their lives if this is made a law.

  51. Paul at 2:53 pm

    I agree with what the government are trying to do in order to stabalise tax revenue income. BUT, this property tax will have to be phased in for those, like myself, that have recently purchased a house. Like the example above, 12,250 stamp duty is the same as 21 years property tax, so I will not be happy unless I am exempt from property tax for the next 20 years as I feel the stamp duty I paid 2 years ago should cover this !!!

  52. linu inn at 2:53 pm

    I think it is ridiculous having to pay property tax,as we bought the house at the boom and this house value gone down hill since .and paying big mortgage on the house.Government need to think that people lost job and redused hours,people are strugling to pay monthly bills.

    May be government needs to mean test peoples asset before introducing property tax.Because most people lost out in value as they bought at high boom timeand how they could tax again.

    Stamp duty would be the better option I think.

  53. liz at 2:51 pm

    i for one will not be paying again , i paid 48000 on a house 4years ago.
    the public need to speak out against this racket and both stamp duty and property tax should be abolished.
    we pay enough taxes on everything else. this country and its govenments are a disgrace.

  54. Betty at 2:42 pm

    What about people that don’t have an income such as the elderly? How would they pay a yearly property tax? Or the many people that have lost their jobs and now are stuck with massive mortgages due to the government-enabled gorgefest that was the Irish property boom? This situation can never be allowed to happen again.
    In theory, a property tax would be better as stamp duty cannot be included in your mortgage and requires getting a separate loan.
    I would like to see what each tax euro is being spent on. Where is my tax being spent?

  55. Zach at 2:34 pm

    Stamp Duty is fairer than land tax. Land tax as seen in many other countries, will hurt anyone in a good residential area. So if you live in Clontarf, or Howth as an example, the Government will say these are up market areas, and so will tax you higher because of the areas you live in. Ultimately you won’t be able to live there due to the taxes…..this is very bad!! Obviously bad areas will utlimately be lower taxes.

    I personally prefer a higher Stamp Duty.

  56. C. C. at 2:33 pm

    Property tax is inevitable as the government needs to recoup money from a stable source, and people will always be buying and selling houses, well when things pick up that is. That said, we paid over €20K in stamp duty when we purchased our house about five years ago, and for the government to tell us that we can forgo the property tax for just seven years is an absolute joke. This government is a pack of criminals. Where is all the stamp money that was paid out through the boom years? I agree with some of the other comments here – if you’ve paid stamp duty already you shouldn’t be liable for property tax, and if they do choose to implement it then the amount of stamp duty you’ve paid should be ‘credited’ towards your property tax – ie, you wouldn’t be liable for property tax until you’ve reached the level of stamp duty paid upfront previously. If they did it in a fair and just way instead of doubly taxing people it might be more acceptable, however, these days it just appears to be take, take, take.

  57. Someone very mad!!! at 2:28 pm

    I agree with Graham above.

    I find it absolutely ludicrous that the government would think of taxing people a second time after we paid exuberant stamp duty during the boom. If you previously paid your stamp duty, I think you should be exempt altogether from having to pay a property tax. I don’t know the full extent of the property tax proposal but my parents which are not retired are still paying around €4000/year. Try that for fair when you no longer work…

    Here is an idea. The government should payback the stamp duty you paid when you bought a house and then subtracts the number of years (x) yearly property tax??? Hhhmmmm… That’s really going to work…
    Instead of blowing money the way they did, they should have put a stop to the property boom when they had the chance and they should have found other means to generate money. I don’t believe we would be in the boat we’re in right now if it had been done earlier, but creaming people for more money is just day light robbery… I guess it never stopped them before…

    There is a huge amount of unsold properties; un-rented properties out there on the market and the amount of people that got caught in buying properties as investment are now paying a hefty price for it. They can’t rent it, can’t sell it and if they do sell, they probably have to at a huge loss if purchased late during the boom, not mention the huge management fees you still have to pay.

    As for negative equity, let’s not even go there!!

    They really should have been more careful and I feel that we’ve been hit hard enough as it is and every penny squeezed every penny they can possibly squeeze out. What is left???

    I know it will make it easier now if you’re a first time buyer but what about people who took a chance during the boom?? Aren’t they being punished enough having had they property completely devalued in less than a year?

    If there had been a property tax right from the beginning and not stamp duty, my attitude would be completely different today as I would have been a few hundred thousand € richer, but hitting thousands and thousands of people for a second time around with this, after happily taking your money for stamp duty is just plain disgusting.

    I guess it never stopped them before i.e. VRT

    These are my views!!

  58. Billy Bruce at 2:23 pm

    I agree with previous comments regarding tax on properties that have already been subject to stamp duty. But my main concern is that proprty tax would not be fixed. I lived in England where you dreaded the yearly announcement of how much the propertyy tax (council tax) was going to be increased. It is an easy way of extracting money from a captive audience, in the same way as PAYE employers are the one’s who are a guaranteed source of government income. Plus as a public employee I have already lost 20% of my take home pay (contrary to what Mr Hobbs drones on about).

  59. may at 2:23 pm

    Property tax is more fair, but it should be calculated on value of house, not sq ft. Values of houses are proportial to the benefits of living in a particular area – schools, amenities, public transport, jobs availability and if people want to live in an area where they can consume these benefits then they should pay for it.

    Taxing on square footage would mean that a 2000sq ft property in Connemara would be taxed the same as a 2000sq ft in Dublin 4. Why should it be? If I am living in Dublin 4, I am living there because I want to be close to city centre, near good amenities and probably working in the vicinity, I should have to pay for that privilege.

    Your home does not generate an income but this is not what the tax is for, it’s for consumption of the services being supplied to a particular area. Property values are the best way of measuring how well served particular areas are because property values will be higher in areas of good services due to high demand.

    Yes, we have too many properties already on the market but not enough in areas where they are needed. A property tax would encourage people to trade down once they have retired or once children have left home and they have no requirement for a 4-bed house near schools, public transport, jobs etc. These people may not need to live near a city centre or near public transport, land is a scarce resource in cities and it should be available to people who need it.

  60. Daniel Duggan at 2:21 pm

    Neither tax is fair. The best solution is to charge for all services provided by the local authority, i.e. water, waste water, streets and street maintenance, waste disposal, etc.

  61. Marie at 2:21 pm

    Having paid stamp duty as a first time buyer (after separation), which the following year was exempted I consider that the proposal is grossly unfair to women who have very little imcome and struggle to make ends meet to have a home. I am deeply upset over these new proposals. Is it not enough that your estate is valued for inheritance tax on your offspring?
    I paid stamp duty I would rather go to prison than pay again.

  62. rd at 2:17 pm

    Neither Tax is acceptable, it is about time we rise up against the crooks that we let run this country….and say NO

  63. Kilian at 2:14 pm

    The property tax is unavoidable. However, anyone who bought during the boom times has paid a hefty stamp duty. So they have paid their property tax ‘up-front’. In order to be fair, people who have paid €xx,000 in stamp duty should be exempt from property tax for xx years.

    It is not equitable that urban areas (higher house price thus higher mortgages) should pay more property tax. Surely the Green party would prefer to see a property tax based on house size? A house in the country tends to be larger, and in general has a greater carbon footprint, than urban houses – surely the larger house should pay a higher property tax?

  64. Ben at 2:13 pm

    I also paid a very high Stamp duty on my home and now the thought of a tax yearly is annoying. But if I wish to trade up and I do, I would rather spread the tax out over the life of the mortgage than have to pay 7 or 9% of the value at source. It makes more sense for everyone. Its swings and roundabouts depending on your situation and situations change. Long term for goverment and citizens a manageable yearly payment is a better policy.

    However at a min there need to be a period of excemption for those that paid high stamp and the market peak.

    But I think EVERYONE agrees the stamp as it stands is not sustainable and will continue to burden any recovery in the market.

  65. Gisela at 2:12 pm

    Property tax brings up any number of other issues though.
    1. I should only apply to new purchases as other people have already paid stamp duty on their houses.
    2. Either charging by sq footage or by value would cause problems. On the one hand charging by square footage could disadvantage some people severely who bought a larger house in a cheaper area because they couldn’t afford a house in a more expensive area and now even though they have less disposable income would have to pay more than another person with more disposable income, living in a more expensive but smaller house. On the other hand charging by value is also not particularly fair either as it brings up the question who would value the house and would it be revalued when prices come down and would that reflect the true market value etc.
    I think in light of all this it would probably make more sense to stick with what we’ve got as this at least is measured by the true value of the house and not some artificially created one. It also has the advantage that you can budget for it when purchasing a house (as you know beforehand what you will have to pay) and not have to worry about it in years to come. Who’s to say that property tax rates wouldn’t got up year on year as and when the government has gotten itself into another tight spot and needs more money?

  66. Andy at 2:10 pm

    I think that it is not fair to land a tax that people were not aware of when they purchased their homes. Why not on all homes going forward, double on second homes, triple on third homes.
    The suggestion of per sq ft is totally unfair as people who have a large totally rural home on an acre worth maybe 100k would be paying the same tax as multi millionaires on a acre in foxrock worth 10 million+.

  67. Tina at 2:09 pm

    I have already paid stamp duty when prices were high and i am still paying back the loan for it and a huge mortgage. IT WILL NOT BE FAIR IF WE HAVE TO PAY AGAIN

  68. JH at 2:06 pm

    I paid 27k in stamp duty as a first time buyer in 2006 (shared purchase). I’m still paying off the loan needed for the stamp duty, now they want to start asking for property tax also? It’s is completely unfair to ask people to pay twice – I cant afford it.

  69. Ruairi O’Conduin at 2:05 pm

    I have no issue with a property tax in theory. I will be quite happy to pay such a tax when the government repays me the 43k tax I paid to purchase a 2 bed apartment at the height of the boom. Now with a baby, unable to move to a bigger house, with the burden of huge negative equity, the idea of this tax sticks in my throat. 7 years exemption? That knocks about €1,500 off. Thanks but no thanks. Tax policy in this country is a joke.

  70. orla at 2:05 pm

    I think the property tax does bring in a steady stream of revenue. And the principal is a good idea. However it needs to be fair. 3 years ago we paid €35,000 in stamp duty.

    If I have to pay up to 1200 a year for the same house I’ve already paid tax for – I cannot see how that is fair. Reimburse me 35k and take your yearly tax – but not both.

  71. name at 2:05 pm

    Don’t think property tax is a good thing, people’s homes don’t generate an income and this would be a permanent burden on it

  72. Colm at 2:04 pm

    Neither is fair.

    Charging 12,000+ for stamping a document is basically the government saying if you can afford to buy a house then we must not have taxed you enough the first time. It’s the same as if they look into your bank account and if they decide you have more than you actually need they decide to take a chunk.

    Charging 500+ a year for some made up possible selling price (not even profit) on a property if you sold it today even though you might not sell for 30 years is like taxing the unemployed based on their potential income. If you sold now you would make X so we will take our share of that now. If you worked you would earn Y so here is the bill for the tax you owe us had you not lost your job.

    By all means tax on realised income. Take a portion of what people get paid through salary or investment return. But taxing people because you didn’t tax them enough the first time or because you just decide you want a share of what they have is morally wrong.

  73. Larrt at 2:03 pm

    Stamp Duty should have been reformed in line with property prices but wasn’t as it was an easy money scam for the gov. Now they need more money to waste so they want to scam yet more tax from something that was already taxed.

  74. Paula Smith at 2:01 pm

    I am so furious that a property tax may be introduced. I paid a significant amount of stamp duty in 2004 when I bought my house, its highly unreasonable now to demand I pay yet more tax on my property when I have already suffered and scraped together the €12k plus on my house. This is double taxation in the extreme.

  75. Chris Ryan at 1:58 pm

    Property tax as lond as its fair.
    If I have to move from Cork to Galway for work, I’ll have to pay a tax on the new property, not on the difference between the two houses. The alternative is to drive to the job daily, daft and not green.

  76. Graham at 1:58 pm

    I purchased a 2nd hand house with stamp duty of €18000.00 and now im going to be hit with an annual fee! The government knows that this form of tax from the purchase of homes has slowed right down so they now need to find it elsewhere. We have already payed!! IT should only be charged to new purchases no stamp Duty but an annual charge instead…..ITS NOT FAIR TO CHARGE AGAIN!

  77. Amanda Rooney at 1:57 pm

    Property tax is a better idea .

  78. grainne Koberl at 1:56 pm

    I think the property tax would be fair if it was calculated on the sq ft of a property rather than the value…I also think that the property market would be more buoyant as homeowners would be more inclined to move up / trade down if they did not have to worry about a large stamp duty payout.

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