Household charge – will you pay it? Is it worth it?

Household charge – will you pay it? Is it worth it?

You can read my thoughts on it or go straight down to the bottom and vote immediately….

My 2 cents worth….

In this country we have a conundrum of taxes being collected centrally then distributed to localities. This naturally creates a subservient local government who have to play pauper to the powers that be centrally. It also means we are not readily privvy to the accountability chain. There is no sense of ‘value’ locally because much of the services we receive are paid for indirectly.

The cost of delivering water to a house is not unlike the cost of delivering electricity to a house, and yet we don’t have protests seeking ‘free energy paid for from taxation’. We do, and will have issues with the water service charges along those lines.

Just as we are already seeing problems with the proposed €100 household charge. This is the first step towards a site value taxation. It is the most regressive (places a greater burden on the poor than the rich) roll out imaginable because it is going to be a ‘flat charge’. Meaning a bolt hole on a hillside pays the same rate as a mansion on Ailesbury Road. There is no more foolish way I can think of doing this….

The caveat however, is that the foundation of the idea is sound, and the future of it is vital if we are going to shift our tax base towards one where you have taxes for things you consume at a cost (water, local roads & services, schools, sewage removal/processing etc.) and another tax for central spending.

Imagine this: if we had a strong local taxation regime the hospital in Roscommon wouldn’t have been shut down. Instead, the people of Roscommon would be supporting that hospital budget and they could decide for themselves how to spend their money, or indeed to raise local taxes to keep the hospital if needs be. 

This is before we even look at some of the madness of how local authorities raise money now. At this moment in time any readers who rent or own a commercial business premesis are familiar with the ‘rates bill’ you get every year. What do you get in return for it? (very little). And why is it that a residential house on the same street doesn’t have to pay for the very services businesses have to pay for? It is effectively a tax on business, a tax on enterprise and it sends out the wronge message; namely that ‘business has to pay for everything’ rather than ‘the people who consume a particular service have to pay for it’.

I’d never walk into a shop, fill up my trolley and attempt to leave without paying, so why do some people think it’s perfectly okay to want free water, sewage services, hospitals, schools and the like? The old chestnut ‘my taxes pay for it’ is a sham argument, there is no apportionment in taxes to tell us what ANY of it pays for! Given that we have a structural deficit what our taxes actually go on is government spending, but we don’t have a precise breakdown of the income taxes that go to Garda in a certain area, that means there is no defined connection between the two.

Why would you see a Garda station closed if the people there wanted it? And why would taxes be collected nationally to pay for firemen in Dublin?

Surely the people that the station serves should be paying for that service as they are the beneficiary?

The Socialist Party wants everybody to revolt and not pay it. Their economic foundation for this is flawed as refusal to pay would warrant a €2,500 charge – 25 times the initial cost.

It would make far more sense for them to advocate non-payment of other taxes for which there is a late fee and surcharge well below this 25 times cost band. Of course, that would mean doing some actual homework and it isn’t as instantly soundbite-worthy.

The argument that anybody can afford €2 a week is untrue; I have yet to find somebody who isn’t due an exemption that will let me audit them to back this statement up, if any of our readers would like to volunteer the offer still stands. I’d go as far as saying that there shouldn’t even be any exemptions.

The Universal Household Charge sucks, and it isn’t fair, but it is a better choice (if it leads to a site value tax regime) than keeping our head in the sand and thinking we have a functional taxation regime when what we really have is a broken central transfer one.

I don’t know about you, but I’ll pay this tax and pay it happily in the knowledge that for the first time in a long time it is one that makes a little bit of sense.

So go ahead and agree or disagree in the comments section below (and don’t forget to vote!)

[poll id=”6″] [poll id=”7″]

 

Karl Deeter
(Twitter @karldeeter)

 Karl Deeter is Operations Manager with Irish Mortgage Brokers in Dublin
There are 86 comments for this article
  1. Dan at 7:59 pm

    I heard a disturbing rumor today that the powers that be have decided to grab the money already gathered by the house tax, (you remember;that thing that was going to fund local governments and facilities) and send it off against the debt.

    Last week I listened to some local rep ranting on for five minutes on the radio how anyone who had decided not to pay were screwing their neighbors, not big government.

    I don’t know if it’s true, but I’d believe it rather than not. Why? Because it’s just the kind of thing they would do and have done. Say that money is targeted for one thing and siphon it off to where they decide it’s best used.

    Big Government doesn’t want to raise taxes to keep schools open. They want to raise taxes to keep on good terms with the creditors. Then they’ll borrow the money to keep the schools open, (or whatever they need to throw money at when they have it. THEY are so much better to decide, after all.)

    So, I agree with the basic points made here about creating a fairer tax structure. But as long as the powers that be have the ability to add anything raised to their own coffers, any argument to pay a so called ‘local’ tax is a sham and another hand in the pockets of the average citizen.

  2. Andy at 11:19 am

    A bit too close to the nerve to post?

  3. Matthew Laming at 11:53 am

    I cant afford to pay the charge what are they going to do fine us …..crazy

  4. Andy at 4:34 pm

    With all due respect the only thing to say about the following sentence is “Bovine Excrement”

    “Imagine this: if we had a strong local taxation regime the hospital in Roscommon wouldn’t have been shut down. Instead, the people of Roscommon would be supporting that hospital budget and they could decide for themselves how to spend their money, or indeed to raise local taxes to keep the hospital if needs be.”

    Why is the above bovine excrement?

    Our overpaid elected County Councillors can’t get a simple answer from the County Manager if he / she does not want to answer their question.

    How in the name of God could anyone be so naive to think that paying any money to the local authority will make one bit of difference to the services they provide?

    We are a country of a little more than 4 million (reducing daily) what do we need all the local authorities for?

    The population of Manchester is higher than Ireland by about 3 million, they have very few M.P.’s one county council with possibly a few urban / district offices.

    Start getting rid of the dead weight, the only purpose our local authorities really serve was grooming grounds for those who wanted to be TD’s, now we are represented by the party faithful who thankfully have practically no power.

    The Admin staff are doing nothing more than duplicating the work being carried out in the other offices and taking up the available funds for the front line workers.

    Time to get real.

    We can’t afford the luxury of all the local authorities,

    Of course no point going to any T.D. with that argument because anyone on their pay scale is not affected by this nightmare caused by the elected representitive of All parties in Government since the late 1990’s.

  5. Lovely Once at 3:06 pm

    The household charge is lovely – however, this is just the start. Remember a lot of people paid 7% stamp duty on their new house a few short years ago. I would pay it if there were no exemptions – €2 per week, every household pays it or none! They will have to round us ‘non-payers’ up on beaches to imprison us, because there will be at least 1,000,000 of us!

  6. Chris at 9:25 pm

    I am completely shocked reading these comments at how many fools are on this posting rubbish.

    For the people who are saying I have no problem paying this, wake up, cop on and get some back bone and stop being a typical Irish do-gooder!! This new charge is wrong in so many ways, TD’s, Waterford City Council and Siptu are against this charge and the fact that only 92% of the population registered so far shows the reluctancy people have of this rip-off charge.

    You need to come back to earth if you think it will only be €100, its said it will increase to around €1600 within a few years.

    This charge will be used to bail out bankers and support bond holders.

    How dare the government threaten the people of Ireland with fines when to date no banker has been jailed or fined for destroying this country.

    Absolutely no way will I or my whole family and friends be paying this new tax, and if everyone stands together and does the same time it will be abolished. Ther are other solutions the government can use for money saving and money making let them use them rather than using the easy way out “us”

    Come on people stop being sheep stand up, have a back bone and say no!! Dont keep asking how high when they say jump. They have gone to far this time!! DONT REGISTER DONT PAY

  7. tom at 2:29 am

    check this out how you dont have to pay house hold bill. You wont get a bill because the charge is a statute people need to understand this. A statute is a legalised rule of aociety given the power of law by the consent of the goverment (Blocks law dictionary 4th Edition ) Who are those it governs US the public .
    This house hold charge is a STATUTE otherwise known as an ( ACT OF GOVERMENT) and only carries the force of the law upon you if you consent to it , whitch weans that your legally obliged to pay it if you consent or in other words ( go onto house hold charge .ie and reister ) your silence and inaction will also give the appearance of consent :if you do not consent to a statute it can not affect you in any way what so ever . The goverment and courts know this and the last thing thay will do is tell you in fact thay will hide this from you , on the other hand if you tell them they will accept it because they know this is actually true ( ACCORDING TO THE ABOVE DEFINATION A STATUORY INSTRUMENT IS A CONTRACT ) if you register for this charge you are consenting to this statute ie signing a contract . This is why the goverment are asking the people to register and not just billing them instead . check it out for your self

  8. Jake at 2:50 pm

    You can see from your survey results that it will not work. I personally know very few (a handful) that are willing to pay this charge and none of them have paid it yet. I for one will not be signing up as I completely disagree with it in principle. I paid 30k of stamp duty on my house during the boom time and accepted it. I took out a mortgage, now in negative equity, and accept it and will not default. I knew what I was getting into. I wanted a house to live in for the rest of my life – bought with the view of staying until I die – not I can make money by selling in future. I certainly would never have bought a house if I knew that I’d have to pay a charge that I cannot guarantee, when in retirement, that I can afford. For example my mothers sole income is the basic state pension, so if she is to pay it, it comes from that – what happened when the government tried to reduce the pension – this is a back door method. I laugh when I hear, well most other countries have it so we should too. Most countries don’t have VRT, so why should we? Most other countries are not taxed to the extreme we are for little return. Most other countries don’t have high excise taxes, we can go on! You state “perfectly okay to want free water, sewage services, hospitals, schools and the like”. It is not free, the income tax we pay is supposed to cover all these services we get, why else are we paying it?? Is it just a tax on employment? It is the complete wastage in the public service that has us in this mess combined with government policies. Cut the waste like any household has to do and live within your means. If the income does not cover the expenditure, you cut – government must do the same and balance the books. We keep hearing we have a tax take of 2000 and whatever but are spending like it is 2012, for example, spending must fall in line with income. I work for a multi-national and when times went south, what did they do; they cut everything they could and survived. The troika want this property tax ‘so we have to do it’ – my understanding is, it is supposed to be tax neutral – how? – what other taxes are being reduced? None!
    I also hear the NPPR tax is not being paid by some and the local authorities can’t be bothered to chase them up. Would it not make more sense to heavily tax those with more than 1 house say minimum of €3000 per year and incrementally on third and so on and you pay nothing on your principle home? If you can afford more than one house then we can make an assumption you can afford more tax. Using logic above, other countries do it so we should too.

    It is going to be yet another farce! They are living in dream land if they think threats of a 2.5k fine are going to make people pay. Mass non-payment is a certainty.

  9. Tom at 9:36 am

    This money collected for property tax is going straight out if the country anyone else says different is lying or ignorant. I would have no problem paying a house tax if we had the same services as other countries do with a house tax. I would find the money from somewhere to pay it even though I’m on dissability if I did not have to pay the same as bankers and celebrity’s. Local council said they are not benefiting from this money. It’s going around online as well that the property tax is not law it’s only if you register online then you are entering into a contract. I don’t know the truth to that but on principle I’m not paying it.

  10. brianmclaren at 5:44 pm

    iwas born in the early 50s served my time as a builder and knew then what it was like to be unemployed pure hardship you were glad to get working.but sadly over so many years now this eec crap now ec and all those tribunals of corruption no body has any faith anymore as to who or what is running our country.. lies after lies no one held to account.we are now back to famine times or near enough.i dont think the real paddy minds payig his way but to who and for what is the unanswered question ///ec/ eho are they///

  11. Brett Tumminia at 4:19 pm

    Excellent editorial. Remember to keep up the very superb performance.

  12. Brendan at 11:50 am

    Karl. Do you realy think that all of these new tax’s are going to be spent on inproving services’ I don’t its going to pay the banker bailout fund and its time we said enough is enough. I am glad that you have a nice office job and can afford to pay whatever needs to be paid in the way of new tax’s but the vast majority are not in that position,and are just making end’s meat. I have talked to many local Co Councilers who have said that they won’t see any of this money.

  13. Karl Deeter Author at 8:29 am

    @Ray I agree with your post, I think on the front of refuse collection that every house should have glass and the like also collected rather than having a household recycle process that means you still have to drive to a recycle centre for some parts of your waste! Maybe a ‘packaging’ charge would be better? Where there is a levy on products depending on how much waste they create and then reduce the refuse collection charges substantially?

    There are of course ‘entry hurdles’ to lots of services even though you pay for them, in some respects that makes sense so that it isn’t abused (medicine/fire service). On a another level it’s absurd, and there should be measurement of consumption (water meters for water charges) and a relevance to the charge just like there is a relevance to your bill at a shop depending on what you buy. Like everybody else, I live in hope of that day!

  14. ray at 11:36 pm

    The problem with all these Taxes that we pay for services is that in this country (unlike other countries)we only ever get part of the services e.g we pay for refuse and recycle to be collected but we still have to despose of our glass,clothes,batteries electrical items etc that we do not want ourselves.
    We pay for Health Insurance but when your sick you pay to see the doctor,he/she refers you to a consultant you then pay them and if you get into a hospital and get treated but do not stay overnight then your insurance may not pay.
    You have a fire, you have to pay for the fire services even though you pay for emergengy services with your taxes.
    Your water tax and house tax will be the same because i grew up in Co Tipp where in the 1970’s they charged you for water and in 1976 (a hot summer) the part of town i lived in did not get any water but we stil had to pay because they were going to bring defaulters to court.
    We pay for a lot of things in this country but we will never get the services for it.

  15. Theo at 7:55 pm

    If it was possible to bar people from blogging, I personally would like to see you barred from ever blogging again. But only if it would lead to other idiots being barred also.

  16. Sarah at 2:08 pm

    I hear that the reason we are being asked to register instead of being billed for the charge is because of the information that is sought as part of the registration. This information is required to facilitate further ways of legally stealing the peoples money by applying charges like septic tank fees etc.

    The grapevine has it that by getting you to register there will be a series of questions that will have to be answered such as whether you have a well or mains etc.. So my suggestion is that people do register but answer each question with the response ‘this information is already with the Local Authority’. That way it forces the LA’s to actually start looking up their own records instead of taking this extremely option.

    I am much more concerned about the accuracy of the information on record about my property. For this reason I would prefer that the registration form we receive already has the information pertaining to our property thats currently on the Local Authority record already shown. All we should have to do then is apply corrections where this information is out of date.

    Appearantly there is talk of penalising people who don’t register on time. How do they propose penalising people without proof they actually advised them personally of a charge in the first place?

    Maybe its my age karl but there is something historically very sinister about demanding the population enmass voluntarily register for something that is to their disadvantage and then to threaten penalties if they don’t comply. What next?

  17. miceal at 1:58 pm

    first of all when does this go into effect ? and talking about the usa , here we get to see the sun 99.99%of the time and i dont mind paying that3%tax that gives us 2 trash pickups per week 24hour police and fire protection immaculate and well maintained highways and by ways try flying from the usa to dublin and rent a too expensive car and after u leave the motorway it is a rough ride to donegal pissing rain farmer tractors doing 5mph give me the usa all the time

  18. Marcos Denne at 2:09 am

    This may likely be considered a instead method for dwelling use but just like a chef and earlier (40Years ago) breakfast cook I use pace and I flip my eggs by utilising a coated pan NO Spatulas contact my pans.Try it !

  19. Karl Deeter Author at 11:19 pm

    @Sarah, in your case I think that a site value tax would obviously be very low. The €100 flat rate doesn’t distinguish between you and people who do have sewage, roads, hospitals etc. That is why I am in favour of a genuine site value tax and not a ‘property tax’ or the flat rate sham we are being faced with now.

    The issue with double taxation doesn’t mean that taxes are not paid twice (eg: you pay income tax then VAT on goods you buy with after tax money), it means you don’t tax the exact same transaction twice, in this case a site value tax is not a ‘stamp’ so it doesn’t apply.

    @OverTaxedWorker yeah, I drafted in Phil to write this one! 😛

    On a more serious note, this isn’t Orwellian diktat from the ministry of truth. Rather it is trying to segregate tax into being applied for what is rendered and thereby give better clarity on what the rest of taxation is about. Tax in this country is a form of governmental abuse of power – the only way for that to change is to make it relevant to services rendered and received, that is the true point of taxation. Sadly we have to make due with whoever makes the rules at the times we live in, but that doesn’t mean a good idea is a bad idea, it just means the rest of the tax system is a perversion of what should be.

  20. Over Taxed worker at 6:55 pm

    “The cost of delivering water to a house is not unlike the cost of delivering electricity to a house, and yet we don’t have protests seeking ‘free energy paid for from taxation’. We do, and will have issues with the water service charges along those lines.”

    Who wrote this for you Karl? Was it Phil Hogan?

    I am sick to death of this pro-government Orwellian propaganda, this is a typical politicians lie, an obfuscation of the real facts. We DO pay for our water, we have ALWAYS paid for clean water through taxation. Politicians don’t lie, but that is not the same as telling the truth, for example the ginger minger from mayo is correct when he says that this tax is going to raise €160M which will be used to fund local services, the big political lie is that he is going to CUT central government payments to local authorities by €171M as he wants to give this money to unsecured bank bond holders instead. So in reality this tax is just another tax to bail out the fat cat bank investors.

    The really sick bit of this though is that this tax is just the precursor to privatising water services the way the bin tax acted as a precursor to privatise bin collection. As james posted on 18 Dec at 6:23 pm “water is the worlds most valuable resource” Time for big business to take it over and make money from it the way they did when Eircom was privatised.

    Also consider how this tax (another political lie, calling it a charge) is going to be applied, everyone will pay the €100 regardless of ability to pay, for example, a family living in a 2-up 2-down in ringsend earning the minimum will pay the same amount of tax as the minister of health James Reilly who ‘earns’ €191,000 plus probably another €100,000 in ‘expenses’ (he claimed €57,000 in expenses in 2008) and lives in Laughton House, a 13-bedroom mansion on a 150-acre site in Moneygallin Co Offaly. Equality for all…… NOT!

    But as billionaire hotelier Leona Helmsley famously remarked; “We don’t pay taxes. Only the little people pay taxes”

    By the way, the septic tank inspection charge, is this what the government is reduced to, taxing peoples shite.

  21. Sarah at 3:42 pm

    Much as it will kill me – we will pay this €100. It will kill me thought and this is why:-

    We already paid stamp duty and VAT on our property when we bought it. Isn’t there a principle that says you can’t tax something twice?

    We’re we live we have to provide our own water and sewage system and maintain both because the Local Authority don’t provide either here.

    Our bin service is via a private company and costs almost €400 pa. the LA don’t provide this either.

    There is no public lighting or local amenities provided by the LA.

    The road is so bad that although it is wide enough for 2 cars you have to pull over to let someone pass because its so full of huge potholes.

    I travel in the M3 so pay to use the main road each day.

    I also spend €65 per week on petrol – and pay tax on that too.

    Our local garda station has been reduced to opening times of 2 hours per week! Needlesstosay burgularies have gone through the roof with the result that those who have an entitlement to a gun licence for hunting purposes now keep a gun in the house. Those of us who don’t now keep large dogs. So we basically provide our own security cause the state doesn’t bother any more.

    Our nearest hospital was down graded meaning that travel time from my home to the nearest A&E now takes longer than the time needed to survive a heart attack.

    We have private healthcard and no matter how dear it gets we will have to find a way to pay it because pubic healthcare here is non existant.

    So thats why my problem is not so much with the €100 household charge – my problem is with the PAYE, PRSI, motor tax and other taxes as they currently stand. Why should I pay all of these and not get equal benefit from it. Afer all I pay for everything I need myself anyway? Shouldn’t that be the case for everyone?

    So heres what I want – a breakdown from the state that shows HONESTLY where the tax from all sources currently goes. Those needed to run the country I have no problem paying. But those currently being used to provide services free of charge to some people in Ireland purely because they live in cities or towns while I have to pay for all services myself while still paying the same taxes as them – well thats just not acceptable any more.

    There needs to be equlity – if I pay the same tax as you I should be provided with the same services. When the state decides it cannot provide me with the same services free of charge that thats ok – just give me my money back and I’ll do it myself but please stop charging me for something you are not providing…

  22. Gerry at 1:33 pm

    Breda, that’s it in a nutshell!

  23. Breda Feeney at 1:30 am

    Why bother about taxes and charges when we all know it is the middle income section of the population who have to pay for everything. The lower income section get exemptions and the higher income section get accountants to get them out of it. When the question of taxing people with an income of €100,000 + was put forward there were all sorts of excuses put forward why this could not be done. Anyone earning over €100,00 + could well afford to pay 10% extra tax over that amount and not even miss it, but, of course, the politicians and celebrities would be included in that group and that could never happen. After all Pat Kenny, one of the most outrageously overpaid in RTE was chosen for a panel on taxation. Need I say more.

  24. Richard O’Halloran at 4:16 pm

    While there is no doubting that the flat charge is a crude mechanism, there can be no justification for not paying. It is nothing short of disgraceful for elected representatives and other ‘leaders’ in the community to be suggesting a boycott. This has led to a ‘me-too’ of assorted people with their own agendas to jump on the bandwagon.
    There never was such a thing as a free lunch and there is no such thing as a free water, electricity or sewage treatment.
    Pay up and get involved at local level to ensure others pay too.
    Richard

  25. Pat at 9:24 pm

    Rural people already pay for water,refuse and by in large for their sewage.We complied with and paid for conformity in the treatment of our sewage specs. But Jasus lads that was no good at all at tal tal. So now Just like the Lisbon treaty, we got to do it again,and maybe again and again. Who Knows ??. As for House or poll tax, whatever label we put on it,is a prerequisite where the household services are provided. Most urban areas would already benefit from long established services. As for the rural people of this fair land we have had to fend for ourselves and up until the not too distant past,had on occasions to rely on the great open spaces and the dock leaf.Alas no more,but do not be mislead yet again. We still do not have sewage systems,water supply,refuse collection.Well yes we do, but we rely on private enterprise for the service and we do pay for it.Now if our local council were to provide this service I would have no hesitation in paying my house, sorry poll tax, as I would be getting something in return.Until then it has to be No to this charge in its present proposed form Pat.

  26. UB at 6:43 pm

    Karl, you are a sound guy and over the past 3 years I found myself agreeing with you pretty much all the time (on Vincent B, PrimeTime etc.) but I’m with Alex on this one.
    My main objections are that a. it’s a regressive tax and thus fundamentally unfair, and b. it may be sold to us as a local government tax or intro to a property tax but let’s face it, its aim is to fill the large gaping hole left by years of political negligence, mismanagement, squandering and lack of regulation.
    I lived in Germany for a long time in a small village and happily paid the quarterly service charge to the municipality (it was paid *directly* to the local district administration) because we actually did get services (water & sewerage, heavily subsidized refuse collection/recycling, heavily subsidized and excellent public transport, roads cleared and gritted in winter etc.) and I don’t expect them to come free.

    Same as Alex we live out in the sticks and I am seriously wondering what services I would be paying for. There is no road gritting, no sidewalks, no bin collection, no public water or sewerage, no public transport. We are paying a private contractor for bin collection – the Co. Co. quite deliberately priced itself out of that market years ago. We are on group water, paid 1500€ for upgrading a few years ago with an attached promise that the council would take over once it was repaired and brought up to scratch – it didn’t. We have a septic tank for which there’ll be an incoming tax too (uhm, what was that for again? Ours is dysfunctional and I’d love to install a properly functioning reedbed system. Got the design. But with more and more of my very modest income going to the exchequer that idea too had to go on the backboiler, …).

    I have lived here for 20 years and from the not-so-good-times through the Tiger years and into recession, the only change I have seen in local govt. is a fancy new Co. Council building.
    This household charge IMHO is just another way of squeezing another tax out of people to fill the void (or should I say the vault), many of whom have their backs firmly against the wall. It would have been a lot more honest to increase income tax rather than to ponder “Let’s see, what else can we levy a tax on?” and then find some excuse for it.
    My 2 cents.

  27. karl deeter at 10:53 am

    @ Owen, they rowed back on the ‘jail time’ threat and are instead looking at revenue sanctions etc. Which is a good thing because there are enough high social risk law breakers who need incarceration without putting tax protesters behind bars.

    Agree on the stance though, why did people say nothing when tax bands were dropped meaning the ‘average joe’ now pays €1,000+ more in income tax per year? This is all about the psychology of the tax rather than the amount.

  28. owen at 10:06 am

    I’m surprised with the degree of fuss caused by the proerty tax. Afterall there’s nothing new about charging/paying taxes. Everyone must accept that taxes are an important source of revenue for funding public services etc. Everybody pays taxes but most would prefer to pay less.

    Average annual motor car tax is > € 100, but hardly gets a mention? I cannot understand why anyone would prefer to go to prison instead of paying the € 100.00 property tax?

  29. james at 6:23 pm

    You want FREE water…. are you all crazy… its the worlds most valuable resource we pay 1-300 a month in Mallorca

  30. Tabetha Hoger at 1:03 pm

    Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit; Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad.

  31. marie at 5:36 pm

    have any of you that agree with water metres ever had one?i have, and i was still paying off the bill for a year after i moved out, even though i was so stingy with the water i hosed myself down with a shampoo hose every day, NEVER had a nice relaxing bath in the whole 18 months i lived there, only washed up once a day and other water saving methods i’ll let ye work out for yourselves- i had to bath my child and wash clothes every day because thats a mothers duty! or perhaps we should have gone around smelly and i should only have done 1 wash a week and never had a bloody cup of tea??? my mate in england had 1 installed and had to get it removed as her bills were insane, and she has 2 kids and 2 step-kids who stay with her alot. I’m telling you water metres are the devils invention and you have no idea how bad they are til you have to suffer one-unlike electricity and central heating and the phone, water is a FUNDAMENTAL NEED, on the bottom row of Maslows Heirarchy of Needs along with air, food and shelter-people DIE without clean plentiful water. there should have been set water rates when things were good,means tested and the money invested in improving/renovating the water and sewage infrastructure. fancy introducing water meters, and NOW of all times, when people on lower incomes are on the bones of their a…. as it is!! wake up everyone, this is not for the benefit of the nation it is PROFITERING and MONEY GRABBING! SHAME ON THIS ROTTEN GOVERNMENT AND THE Bs WHOSE BLOODY IDEA IT WAS- i hope they get their comupance VERY soon!

  32. TCM at 2:14 pm

    mary mcgovern
    Posted 16 Dec at 11:14 am | Permalink
    “I live in a tiny apartment and already paying EUR900 service fees so why do I have to pay it ? I pay for my bins , general upkeep and maintenance of area out of these..”

    Mary the above is not a valid argument.
    1. You knew the size of the appartment before you bought it.
    2 You knew how much the maintenance charges would be before you bought it.

    I do not pay maintenance charges, but I pay for my bins and also pay for upkeep of my own property.

    I might ask you also – who should pay for use of public services such as lighting, roads, traffic lights? – me and not you.

    Get on with it.

  33. Tracy Murphy at 1:37 pm

    @ Alex – wow well said Sir! Thanks Alex. You articulated very nicely what was in my head. Well said indeed. I totally agree with you. Except I won’t be able to leave Ireland because if I sold my house to leave I wouldn’t be able to afford the hit because of negative equity. And I don’t really want to leave my beautiful country like some poor unfortunates have had to.

  34. Tracy Murphy at 1:12 pm

    I already pay extortionate tax. I didnt pay for bin charges & Im not paying for water rates either which this tax is a precursor to. It reminds me of the Sheriff of Nottingham age, steal from the poor and give to the rich w@nkers, we need a Robin Hood people to fight for us!!! The money from this tax will just go straight to pay towards the umpteenth debt the W@nker Bankers made for us ppl to pay back without so much as a by or leave.

  35. owen MacCarthy at 11:41 am

    If it were only a household tax of € 100, fine. But we all know it is only the start of higher charges. For landlords it is only 100 but add it to the lower allowance on interest, 2nd home charge, residential charge, rubbish collection charge in the service charge, . etc. Dont forget the local authority charged builders when getting planning permission for providing various services, as much as €50,000 per house, ..the list is endless. Has anyone actually calculated all of these charges. We also paid stamp duty when buying and mortgaging. The true rate of tax is higher than the nominal rate, because you must add in the PRSI,UNiversal charge and other levys (insurance health etc. Why do those in VHI etc not get what we are entitled to i.e FREE hospitalisation which should be deducted from the VHI charge for beds,and now an increase in hospital bed charges. In addition there are rates on commercial property athat only go up every year, higher VHI charges. ….it is never ending. If we all left VHI etc the public service would totally collapse. Maybe you might say that VHI charges are not public funds but they are forcing VHI to increase their charges which are effectively passed on to us, but in reality are charges by the government.It is in effect a dovernment charge, but is dressed up as a vhi charges (By vhi I mean all pivate medical, insurance)

  36. J. O’Brien at 11:01 am

    Karl

    The lease has a fixed price and you may like to dream that the courts will back a landlord who asks someone else to pay his tax, but you are 100 % wrong! You are fanning dangerous flames you are hurting the owners more than the tenants! Very irresponsible!

    Your voice is typical of the stupid Irish property mentality which got us into this situation – short-term gain for long term pain.

    No tenant will renew the lease of any landlord which asks them to pay their tax and when move they will drive all rents down as they w ill seek further savings.

    The economy is getting worse, more emigration will follow and many more houses will come on the market as more people can no longer let their second homes sit empty. The lease is a legal agreement/contract – it is included in the price and landlords are in no position to get stupid with the few remaining tenants!

    You are wrong about this – your fight is with the government, not the only friend a landlord has – his tenant.

    My tenant’s lease is up in May and iI would like him to renew – or, should I ask him to pay €100 for his last few months with me? Can he then refuse entirely or dispute the 60 % of the charge because the lease is over?

    The only way any landlord could get this money from a tenant is to increase rent by 12 a month when the next renewal is due – if he dares rock the boat that is.

    Do you see the stupidity of your irresponsible advice yet? It’s an ugly can of worms indeed!

    Do you have some vested interest trying to shape the debate in such a destructive direction? Your interest is certainly is not with the property owner unless you seek a quick profit somewhere? From your tenant you’ll lose very soon perhaps?

    Or … you are a government troll trying to steer the fight away from FG and watch the little people fight amongst themselves?

    I know no-one like to be told they are wrong but you have made a serious error in judgment here and you should do whats best for everyone, fight the government!

  37. Natasha at 12:26 am

    Delighted the government has the courage to introduce a charge. Can’t believe how many handouts some people think they should get. Was disgusted with the bin charge protesters in Dublin 10 years ago. How dare they think their dirt should be cleaned up for free? However, I do think water and other charges should be metered. Why should someone who leaves the tap running have to pay the same as someone who is careful?

  38. Karl Deeter Author at 11:26 pm

    @Pat there are not ‘universal water charges’ though. In your case you have to pay for your own – and therefore realise it comes at a cost, while others don’t. I’m in the same boat, I have to treat well water and buy bags of salt etc. regularly. There is (it seems) a large contingent who think that everything is taken care of out of general income tax, that isn’t the case and until we are nationally of the belief that we should pay our own way for what we use we’ll be in trouble.

  39. pat at 10:30 pm

    no 1 there are already water charges!
    I have a house in the countryside and it cost me e3000 to install pump and treatment system.
    Maintenance and running costs probably about e200
    per year. I do get any relief of any description
    Tax or otherwise.I did get a grant of e2200 for installation.
    n0 2 A friend of mine bought a 2 Bed Villa in Portugal and pays over e600 per year property tax.
    TIME TO GET REAL YOU SPOILED CITIZENS

  40. Jac at 8:35 pm

    Karl,
    My disappointment is with the hypocritical Morons that decided this tax. Yes the tax should be paid, but no household should be exempted. Let the truth be told most of those who are exempted are financially better off than those who are working and not depending on social welfare – especially at the current time.
    Go and do your audit – which is what the government should have done before making their decision – You will realised that the disposable income of those exempted is higher than that of most poor souls who have to pay.
    Secondly, why should landlords pay for tenants when it is the tenants who benefit from the services that this tax is supposed to be supporting?
    It is part of killing the goose that lays the egg. Killing businesses and investors for the sake of the so called “vulnerable” most of who are conning and abusing the system.
    I don’t have problem with supporting those who are genuinely needy, but as an ordinary man on the street it pains me to see the sweat of hard working people been squandered by some of the so called “vulnerable” who are just con men and women. We see many of them all around us everyday – both indigens and non-indigens.
    Thirdly, I will hope that this is the first step towards proper valuation based system. For that reason we should give Mr. Hogan the benefit of doubt that eventually it will turn in to a progressive tax.

  41. John at 8:20 pm

    If the charge is truly to pay for local services, then the cost would be per person living in a property. For using the local services Karl mentioned, namely “water, local roads & services, schools, sewage removal/processing etc”, those living in bigger houses wouldn’t necessarily make greater use of these amenities, especially when water is excluded(and they do intend to charge for that separately). Bigger houses do not necessarily produce more sewage and often have fewer school going children.

    It is all immmaterial in any case, the money from this charge will go to central government, not to the local authorities and if some money does return to your local area, it will merely displace money that was already coming from the exchequer, so your local council will be no better off. Also if the new charge is to pay for local services, then it is very badly timed, as local services are being cut back, so we’re being asked to pay more for local services and getting less local services.

  42. Pat Naughton at 6:25 pm

    WE voted out of office the only symbolism of social government we had in this country, only to replace it with a truly conservative partnership in the shape of Fine Gael and the so called Labour Party, Who have reneged upon nearly every pre election promise, to the benefit of all those who got this country where it is today, and have walked all over their victims, ie those of us who had no hand act or part to play in its downfall.So now, we are behaving like good little citizens,which is no doubt of considerable delight to Mercosies of this magnificent union.To think we have yet again been led by the noses down the road of false promises. (When Will We Ever Learn) Enough,,, Already”’

  43. padraig at 5:09 pm

    Once it is based on size and value it will be fair,as outside dublin there are large houses but the value is lower than a city but they should pay due to the size.
    Most other counteries charge a property tax and also waste and water ,pay for what you use it fair.

  44. Alan at 4:41 pm

    If you want to know why we are being asked to pay this tax and the reason for the increase in taxes and the planned increases, because people we haven’t seen anything yet. watch the “Inside Job”
    Here is a link http://twitter.com/#!/search/%23insideJob/slideshow/videos?url=http%3A%2F%2

    25491676

  45. karl deeter at 4:19 pm

    @J O’Brien: yes, it does have a fixed cost but with variable cost aspects to certain elements of it. That does not void the essential contract.

    The clause is there to allow for unforseen variable costs, in this case at renewal a renegotiation can take place and prices will go up or down, that doesn’t matter as it will be a function of the market.

  46. J. O’Brien at 3:11 pm

    The lease has a fixed price. You are opening an ugly can of worms and you are hurting the owners more than the tenants!

    Furthermore, no tenant will renew the lease of any landlord which asks them to pay their tax. Would you go bak to a restaurant if at the end of your bill they produced a clause which asks you to pay a charge for their property tax? No, it is included in the price and landlords are in no position to get stupid with the few remaining tenants!

    You are wrong about this – your fight is with the government, not the only friend a landlord has – his tenant.

    Typical of Irish property mentality – short-term gain for long term pain.

  47. Karl Deeter Author at 2:57 pm

    We use the following clause in leases:

    3.4 To pay promptly to the authorities or to whomever they are due, local authority, refuse charges and outgoings (including gas, water, electricity, cable television and telephone if any, relating to the property) including any which are imposed after the date of this Agreement (even if of a novel nature) and to pay the total cost of any re-connection fee relating to the supply of gas, water, electricity, cable television and
    telephone if the same is disconnected or the operating company changed.

    This covers the charge being levied as being the responsibility of the tenant, the best option is to have these things in the contract rather than worry about the ‘right or wrong’ of the ‘reasons’ for doing it.

  48. alex at 2:53 pm

    Although I am lucky to be able to afford this charge I will not be paying it, and will go to jail first. Until I see this government reversing their policies of screwing te poor and the vulnerable while protecting the rich and vested interests and themselves I will not be supporting them or this country in any way, and that is the crux of the issue for me.
    A lot of people in Ireland are all out for themselves and don’t give a damn about the less well off. The govt has kept its support by not increasing taxes on middle and higher income earners, who could much more afford it than the poor who they have targeted. Most people like me say the budget was fine as they were not affected, but surely to God everyone knows some friend or family member who was affected and I just can’t understand how the government has gotten away with their FF policies yet again.
    As for the household charge, as soon as my council deliver services to me in rural Ireland, such as gritted roads, mains water and sewage, and bin collection, I would be happy to pay for that service. I will not pay for “services” that I do no receive from a council whose only aim is to keep its bloated workforce of penpushers in jobs in their comfy offices. In the UK people actually receive “services” for what they pay – when did you last get any help from an Irish council for any house-related problem??? In the UK they even have pest control departments who will come out if you have wasps or rats!! Imagine an Irish council providing that!
    All of you who are in agreement with and/or will pay this charge should spare a thought for the little people in this country who do not have a voice and stand up against a government which has done nothing but target them and punish them for the crimes of the rich, and if that does not begin to happen soon I for one will be saying goodbye to good old Ireland for once and for all, and I doubt if I will ever return!!

  49. J. O’Brien at 2:44 pm

    With regards to. Are they serious?!?!?

    It is so irresponsible for IPOA to advise passing on the charge to tenants – in fact I wonder if I could sue IPOA for lost income when my tenant moves after I issue such an unjust charge.

    It’s my property and tax is my responsibility. What kind of regressive logic would have me asking tenants to pay my tax?

    It is greedy landlords and property owners, which ruined this country by continually increasing prices far higher than their real value and driving away all the foreign investment because firms could not pay the employees enough to manage their bubble rents and mortgages. It wasn’t Dell’s fault for providing thousands of jobs, it was the people who sold and rented to the workers, which drove those jobs away. We seem to like to conveniently forget what really happened.

    However, another shoot-your-own-foot result of this regressive idea is that the result will drive rents down, not up. Every time a tenant moves they choose a cheaper accommodation and if my tenant moves I will have to advertise at about €100 less then I get now. (THANK YOU IPOA!).
    Sending letters to tenants wishing to change (read break) the terms of their leases will only result in many court cases and broken leases. I would not be surprised if a landlord blacklist website emerges out of this.

    Typical of Irish property mentality – short-term gain for long term pain.

    J. O’Brien

  50. Mary B at 2:28 pm

    I would go with other charges, ie. water,etc. before going for a property tax.
    I have lived in the US where because of the property taxes, which started out long ago “reasonably”, have made it a serious burden on the majority of home owners. You truly never really own your own home, and if your house has gone up in value you are taxed accordingly. If it has gone down, somehow your tax doesn’t.
    Many people, esp. older or those on fixed incomes, have had to sell their family homes as a direct result of not being able to pay the property tax on their homes every year. This is a great sadness for so many people, and a burden that they can’t get out of. So many family homes are lost because of the tax going up year after year.
    I have always been very proud that in Ireland we didn’t have a property tax on our primary residences, regardless of its value. Just because the rest of the countries have a tax is not a reason to follow suit.
    Look further down the road on this issue…and don’t start something that will be a black hole for everyone. It is left up to others to value our property, and then we have to pay for the right to live in it.

  51. Tom at 2:13 pm

    A property tax of some type makes sense but not this flat charge. Why do e not have a database of property owners in this 21st century linked to the size and value of their property and the owners incones? The Revenue and Dept of the Environment have all of this information but for some reason in our “knowledge economy” they can’t join up the dots.

    One thisng that I would strongly aggree with is your cmment “shift our tax base towards one where you have taxes for things you consume at a cost (water, local roads & services, schools, sewage removal/processing etc.)” This tax does not do that as the owner of the property, not the tenant who is using the services, has to pay the charge. This is ridiculous on top of the NPPR charge. Why do tenants get away with everything, many on their free rent allowance, and landlords have to pay for their tenants services as well as pay the mortgages, insurance and upkeep of the property where the tenant lives.

    Other European countries, e.g. France have a fairer property tax based on the value of your property and split into half, one half paid by the owner of the property and one paid by the resident of the property. Come on Government, join up the dots and do it right! I will pay the charge on my own house but not on my rental properties.

  52. karl deeter at 2:04 pm

    The idea that this is going to pay €1bn Anglo bonds or otherwise is farcical, for a start the revenue raised will not raise nearly as much as that and secondly it isn’t for that purpose….

    @stephen byrne: not a fair analysis, for instance, in my own home i receive neither water or sewage treatment from the local authority, and yet I pay tax to the central government.

    In my hometown of Los Angeles we have been paying water charges for 50 years and I certainly wouldn’t call LA a third world city.

  53. Andrew at 2:02 pm

    I thought we voted in a new government that were going to fight for us, not the Troika!?!? At least that’s what they told us!
    Anyone deluded enough to think that this ‘property tax’ will go to providing ‘essential services’ isn’t very aware of the MASSIVE con job that’s being perpetrated on the people of Ireland right now. The broken capitalist system is being repaired from OUR pockets and despite this some people actually think this is OK??? Our imposed austerity beggars belief…

  54. Gareth O’Toole at 2:00 pm

    They are ONCE AGAIN asking for the public to bail them out. The present Government SHOULD be impeached……

  55. June Gutkin at 1:54 pm

    We are the only country that doesn’t pay property tax so yes I will pay it. I payed rates when they were around years ago. I think the people in Ireland were badly spoiled during the Celtic tiger and expect too much from welfare. Where do they think this money is coming from if they don’t want to pay taxes on anything. I am fed up listening to the moans and groans of yes the pensioners, (I’m one myself)they are the worse moaners of all. All have no morgages, collage fees or children to support, only theyselves. So they are saying they may have to sit with their coats because they can’t afford to put the central on. Don’t they remember when they were young there was no such thing as central heating and we had to get dressed on cold lino on the floors in cold bedrooms. Maybe coats on the beds at night and we lived to tell the tale. I wish they would all get off the band wagon and realise how well off they are.

  56. marie at 1:53 pm

    the only reason I’ll pay it is because I’ll be in trouble if I dont! however, it is an unjust tax! they should introduce a Council Tax like in the U.K., WHERE THE SMALLER YOUR HOME AND THE ROUGHER THE AREA, THE LESS YOU PAY!! And people in big mansions in posh “des-res” areas pay the most! AND people in the U.K. get their bins, street lights, parks and playgrounds and librarys etc. for paying Council Tax! AND people on low incomes, single occupants and those on benefits get discounts or full Council Tax Benefit- how the hell we are going to pay this out of my partners Jobseekers, on top of the electric, oil and soon water bills I dont know and I’m sure many others are feeling the same? And the insult to injury is we will still have to pay for bins, not have any play areas for miles, have a library one has to pay to join and is hardly ever open! what a SICK JOKE! we are being teated like dirt and letting them away with it AND THEY KNOW IT! WHERE are the JOBS we were promised? as you may guess, I’m disgusted and boiling mad!

  57. Eugene reilly at 1:08 pm

    No I won’t pay it we have been screwed enough iam quite prepared to go to jail
    The new government and the last shower are all the same shame on them

  58. Terence Dardis at 12:57 pm

    Unfair on poor

  59. John at 12:55 pm

    N…O No

  60. Bernadette Flynn at 12:53 pm

    My husband and I are both unable to work due to health problems.He worked for 40 years and I worked when I was able to.We are struggling to pay our mortgage as it is and we do without a lot of thing to pay that -we try to feed ourselves for 30eur max a week. I think the charge should be means tested and based on peoples ability to pay-When there were rates years ago at least the bins were collected by the county council now we pay for that separately and soon we will have the water charges etc to face. I think they should just hire a bus for those of us that want to give up and send us off to Switzerland to be put to sleep-theres only so much a body can handle as you older. Its scary to be getting older in Ireland I feel sorry for the elderly that did without all the years to keep the country running and now they wont have the heating they need to keep warm over our very long damp wet winters. Whats next?

  61. The Big Lebowski at 12:47 pm

    A property tax that is fair and equitable is fine, €100 this year, already touted to be €200 next year and increasing further in years to come is not fair or equitable. In addition to this people who bought a second property for whatever reason (pension,additional income etc)having to pay this charge on top of the NPPR tax is a disgrace and of course it is going to be passed on to tenants through higher rent and rightly so, as they are the people who will be getting use of the services mentioned.
    I will pay the €100 property tax on my home, but I will not pay it on an investment property that I have already been taxed on through stamp duty and the NPPR tax.
    The money raised is NOT going to pay for services, it is going out next week in the form of a €1bn payment to UNSECURED bondholders of Anglo.

  62. Sean at 12:43 pm

    Great debate here Karl. I’m a right winger so I believe this is probably a good way to go. We have too many lefties in this country fighting the battle for lazy wasters who have no motivation for getting off their life long social welfare habit. What we need is a right wing government to sort this mess out. Oh for an Irish Margaret Thatcher!

    Sean – Raheny

  63. karl deeter at 12:25 pm

    One massive issue that I didn’t mention was that Central Government also forces businesses (and will do the same to people) to carry local authority costs unfairly.

    How? Because they don’t pay rates, so if a Government office locates in building X that building is now not rateable meaning the local authority have to find money elsewhere. In Dublin alone this creates a €30,000,000 loss per year which must be collected from those who do pay commercial rates. what a SHAM!

  64. Paddy tax payer at 12:19 pm

    The local authorities must be financed; removal of domestic rates by FF in 1977 was one of the worst political promises actually kept after the election. It undermined the finances and therefore the independence of local government throughout Ireland, led to over-reliance on stamp duty as a means of raising tax on properties. The net effect was an ‘expensive housing is good’ mentality as government collected more stamp duty and property owners felt rich and happy, and look at the mess that kind of thinking has gotten us into!
    I do not agree with concept of ‘tax’ on property, better to levy ‘service charges’ that recoup all the costs associated with the provision of services by the local authorities. There should be no exceptions to this charge, if you want to live in Ireland you pay for your food, electricity, gas, phone, etc. so what is the issue in paying for roads, footpaths, bin collection, water? And as final comment I’ll bet that the vast majority of people opposed to service charges have money for drink, fags, rubbish Christmas presents and gaudy weddings.

  65. karl deeter at 12:15 pm

    Wow, big divide of opinion!With 67% of people who so far disagree with the charge but 50% will pay it!

    @Narbara Seligman: using square footage is about hitting people for house size which is not necessarily a metric of the services rendered to that property. Take this as an example: A person lives on a 1 acre site in Dublin suburb but in a small house on that land, they pay very little, a person on a good sized semi-D (because they built an extension) pays more… The idea is to ‘capture’ public expenditure which creates the value in the location (the land) and for that reason a site value tax doesn’t inhibit people from improving their property or extending it etc. rather it focuses on the part of value which the State creates (becaue they don’t build the house).

    @Neil Reid: I mostly agree that we have it better here in terms of property tax than almost anywhere else, but the ‘sense of entitlement’ is that particular to Ireland in your opinion?

    @Killian Why would you be bothered about paying for water that you use?

    @Alan There is a great divide between management companies who may or may not perform to your liking and local authority servies such as water supply – which by and large is delivered to a standard quality.

    @OT That is a better distillation of the point I was trying to make than I was able to come up with myself! +1

  66. Des Lalor at 12:03 pm

    Hi,

    Part of the problem in this country is the fact that the commercial rates are too high. They are too high because, apart from the cost of local Government, and that is another debate,the commercial sector has had to shoulder the burden of the costs because we, the homeowners, have not been asked to pay our fair share.
    I would suggest that the homeowner be charged annually at a rate of 0.035% of the cost of the property when it was either bought or otherwise acquired, subject to a minimum charge of €100.00 or some such modest charge. The homeowner would pay whichever is the greater. The advantage is that the system is fair in that the owner opted to buy that house at the market rate and considered that they could afford to pay the appropriate costs, otherwise they would not have bought that property. There is no cost in determining the “value” of the property and those living in the more expensive properties are being asked to pay a greater share towards their community charges, whilst still not being fleeced. The whole point is that the system is fairer than the flat charge. If the property owner objected strongly enough to paying these “domestic rates”, they could always choose to sell and live elsewhere. They choose to live there and determined the value at the time. There could also be scope to consider genuine hardship. This system means that as one gets older and one’s earning power diminishes, one is not hit with an ever increasing local authority charge in domestic rates. The market determines the value.

  67. dr m.m.arian at 11:58 am

    this government will fit a meter in peoples backside next year.every time you go to loo,you will be charged.and if you are a public servant you will pay pension levy on it as well(10%).all houses baught b/w 2004-2009 are in massive negative equity and still govt charges tax and levies on rental income.what else they want.we were not even in the game,why we have to pay the price?? Is any banker,builder or politician is prosecuted for sinking the whole country???//

  68. mary mcgovern at 11:14 am

    I live in a tiny apartment and already paying EUR900 service fees so why do I have to pay it ? I pay for my bins , general upkeep and maintenance of area out of these . We are just been double taxed with al these indirect taxes tax levy 1 and 2 prsi etc where will the money go to ? its just another unfair tax . My sq. footage is so small with no direct access to public roads etc so nothing for Dublin corporation to do for me compared to a big house with bigger sq footage . Ridiculous the whole thing and very unfair ……

  69. Thomas Altman at 11:12 am

    Here is something that really bothers me still.

    Nobody has given me a valid reason about why we bailed out our failing, flopping banks, I see references all the time that our tax money was paid to keep the banks going – an action that was taken without the public having any say in the distribution of our taxes. (This is not, to my mind, democratic.)

    Second, when anyone invests in an institution such as a bank or other business, this entitles the investor to expect repayment, with interest, at some set future date Nobody seems to have paid any attention to this, least of all the banks. If I had decided to invest in my local bakery, for instance, an agreement between that business and myself concerning dividends and repayments would be signed, witnessed and appraised.
    This has NOT happened between we taxoayers abd the banks. In fact the banks just keep rolling prosperously on, and we watch our money vanish into a foggy distance. Clearly this is a barefaced scheme to make the rich richer – to save jobs for the miserable fogies that ‘run’ banks, and deprive the taxpayer of his capital investment.
    Or perhaps it wasn’t an investment after all, just barefaced robbery? Either way, we were suckered in without choice by mediocre politicians – and they wonder why we distrust them?
    Are there any true answers to be had from anyone?

  70. Pat G at 11:02 am

    This Government is too british in there thinking (screw the poor)If you let these charges in well in two years time you will be paying €800-€1000 p/a
    the same as poll/council tax;u.k,So dont kid yourself,this will happen once you allow that foot in the door.Plus there will be water charges plus sewage charges for those without there own well & septic tank,but they thought about that too to get more money,inspactions & charges for tanks in rural areas,Plus we have the 1 year nct/mot which is another burden for
    people who cant afford a newer car,speed cameras on most roads is next,tolls on tunnels,flyovers,briges i could go on about lots more.you have a voice & should use it to tell mr kenny to bring an ENDA to the suffering of the elderly & poor of this great country by not taking
    the food out of some poor childs mouth or by taking the most needed coal from the elderly.
    And can i enda by saying,STOP GIVING PAY RISES OUT OF OUR MONEY TO PEOPLE ON OVER €100,000 P/A
    PEOPLE

  71. Noel O’C at 10:59 am

    this is an Irish problem – we have been lead to believe that services are covered by existing tax collection when it has not covered the cost for many years. Also the tax base needs to widen as it is unfair that less than 1.5 million workers pay all of the income tax. Everyone who use a service should pay for it no exceptions. The less well off need to pay but perhaps at a reduced cost but not free. Nothing is for nothing.
    My mum down the country pays for water, bin collection and sewage clean-outs. I live in the meath and only pay for bins (free water, free sewage). This has to change.

  72. andrew at 10:56 am

    dont agree one bit. if my management company reduce their fee from €900 a year to €800 then i may consider. i havent paid my management fee in 3 years because they like the government do nothing but expect you pay these crazy charges. what will this money be used for?? Let me guess pat increases?? another bank bailout?? or maybe a nice big bonus for some fat cat. they can f off

  73. joanne carson at 10:48 am

    The Irish Property Owners Association says landlords should force tenants to pay the landlords taxes by calling it a “service charge”. The IPOA frequently gives advice to landlords that directly contradicts the law. If your landlord sends you details of a new service charge, send it back and do not pay someone else’s tax.

    Ah its a lot of fekn shite, there will be uproar if the IPOA get their way, eh who are they anyway, a bunch of blow bags!

    It was made clear by yer man Minister Hogan that the household charge was a charge on the owner of the property, and not on the tenant!

    So let them try, it wont get them any fekn where, im certainly not paying it and i cant imagine my landlord asking me to pay it anyway, if he does he will get his answer!!

  74. Elaine at 10:44 am

    This budget see’s the means testing of Children’s Allowance (about time) it should also see the correct means testing of the medical card (some very wealthy older people are in receipt of it) and the means testing of this household tax also. It is extremely reminiscent of the ‘Poll tax’ which i lived through in London. We saw the nightmare scenario of elderly people being removed from their hospital beds to go to court etc. It is another outragious blow to the poorer communities of this country. It is amazing that the ‘Labour’ contingent are apparently having their say in these new implemented taxes. I can no longer believe in a Labour party in this country. Means test this tax to ensure that the wealthier families who can afford it will pay it. There is a huge emplyee payment bill at the moment. Let them work for their money and sort it out in a fairer way.

  75. STEPHEN BYRNE at 10:43 am

    Equating water supply with any other utility service is flawed. Water supply and sewerage treatment is fundamental to any so called civilized society and should be funded through central taxation. In many countries if the householder cannot afford to pay for the water supply or makes a late payment the water supply is immediately cut-off. This gives rise to unsanitary conditions leading to potential disease which we appear to find unacceptable in Third World Countries.

    Local authorities have never been frugal with local taxpayers money and therefore it is unwise to allow them to seek further taxation. On the subject of the Household Charge, this is another way, and an easy way for this government to tax the poor in addition to cutting their wages and welfare payments at the behest of big business. This government is no better than the last one-the actors on stage have simply changed. I believe most people will pay the household charge rather than allowing their elected government to imprison them for non-payment.

  76. Rosie at 10:35 am

    I certainly don’t agree with the new charges coming in. I will probably pay it as I would be afraid of getting a fine and not being able to pay it. How do these big cats expect us to pay for it? We’re on a one salary at the minute and with a young family we are budgeted to the hilt and have no extra money around to pay this. Why can’t they just take money off those that earn over 55k or there abouts, or reduce their own money again. We’re living on less than 21k a year and have a young family. is it any wonder young people are leaving this country.

  77. Brian Buckley at 10:32 am

    I completely disagree with the notion that local authorities are better placed to manage their own budgets through local taxation. I lived in the UK for 10 years where local authorities set their own local charges. Surprise, surprise the costs went through the roof as services went through the floor. Local authorities are unaccountable idiots who simply waste public money. Ask any Business in Ireland about local authority charges – and be prepared for gouging if these fools ever get the green light from Government to manage charges themselves. The Government is at least accountable to the people.

  78. AG at 10:29 am

    Your argument makes perfect sense. Unfortunately we don’t appear to have anyone in government with a bit of sense and I’m 99% certain that this money will be given to back up failing banks or squandered in some way! I will pay my charge. I don’t want to pay it. But what is the alternative? Paying €2,500? I certainly can’t afford that!

  79. Bernie Hourihane at 10:24 am

    I agree with the property charge, but not the blanket charge across the board. What will we get from this tax?

  80. Rita Sexton at 10:24 am

    Don’t mind paying if it comes down to it but my concern would be its €100 this year bet every other year from now on it will be going up and up so, for that reason, I don’t want to start digging a hole for myself knowing that its going to get bigger & bigger, just like the T.V.Licence.

    We are not going to solve our financial problems anyway by paying this money, just tell the Government to lead the way in prayer and a return to God who is in charge of all but sadly is left out of everything.

  81. OT at 10:23 am

    It always bemuses me that people want the highest possible services but don’t make the connection to the need to pay for them. Not only do I think that there should be a property tax (that’s fair and proportionate) to replace transaction based taxes like stamp duty and yes VAT, on property purchases but I also think that there should be a rates charge, on everyone regardless of whether they are in private owned accommodation, rented or local authority accommodation. The rate charge should be set by local authorities and would I think make them much more accountable for the services that were provided.

  82. Alan at 10:23 am

    What about those of us who pay rip off of mgt fees for services we do not rec, are we to bow down and pay these fees also for services we will not rec. This money will not go towards your local needs, it will head to Germany to pay off bad loans taken out by private investors and illegally transferred into the public domain. I can afford to pay it if I so choose, but I will not be on the grounds its time for Irish people to stand up and say no, no more cuts to SNP’s no more cuts to public health were people are left to die in hallways and for what, so bond holders who lets not forget speculate to accumulate and didn’t run to the public purse with monies gained from years of manipulating a system to there ends (illegally in most cases) a system they built up knowing only one possible outcome would one day come, and that day has come. Its time to make a choice, either we stand up against these people waging an economic war against us, and take the power back for the people to serve the needs of the many and not those chosen few who cling to old ways of thinking and manipulate/bribe those we have chosen to represent us.
    WAKE UP (we are the 99%)

    2012 is going to be interesting!!!!!!!

  83. Kilian at 10:20 am

    the household charge is extremely unfair – i am so angry that we are being asked to pay it. it is a precursor to water charges and a property tax. I bought in dublin at the height of the boom – i now have a house worth less than half of aht i paid – I am in negative equity – the house is too small but i can’t move (no chance of getting another mortgage and can’t afford to take the loss in value). i will not pay a property tax on this – the whole idea is just nonsense!

    I don’t agree with the household charge – however – the government need to balance their books – if the money doesn’t come from the household charge then we can expect either a cut in some other service or else an additional tax/charge elsewhere. At least with the household charge i know that the government is screwing me

  84. Neil Reid at 10:17 am

    Just pay it and be thankful we don’t live in the USA where every year they pay between 6% and 10% of the value of the property… NICE… don;t get me started on our free healthcare (medical card) that people don’t get elsewhere?

    Don’t want to pay it?? Go live in Holland where you only get social welfare for 6 months and that’s it…. no long term benefit

    PAYE not touched… Tax in Sweden is 51% for the higher bracket!!

    We are spoilt in this country and our sense of entitlement is outrageous.

  85. Narbara Seligman at 10:14 am

    It would be fairer if it was by square foot.